Tom Hibbs also happens to own a fence building company that would profit from all of the security fencing built along the line because the neighbors in Southampton are up in arms about this. They've told the township over and over: NO TRAIL.

The author of this article leaves out alot of details. Where was the meeting held? How many people attended? (Was Patch the only attendee??). No other details about this meeting. A meeting about becoming a non-profit at an undisclosed location. Good journalism.

Patch - this is some incomplete reporting. Where did the meeting take place? How many people showed up? Was it open to the public, or was the location only provided to selected individuals, including Patch reporters? It sounds a bit more like a private press conference than a meeting.

Also, since the only two people named as being in attendance are the reporter and Mr. Hibbs, does the reporter have any ties to this group?

Some fact check on the Northampton meeting would be in order. There was a very negative reaction to this idea, not a "we'll talk about it later." Of the few that supported it, one wouldn't give her address, and another lied about living there.

Readers await some clarification.

Good luck.

What happened to my last comment? Why was it deleted? Where was the meeting held, and was Tom Hibbs and the author of this article the only attendees?

We do not want this trail in Northampton Township! I guess they didn't get the message at the Township Meeting. We do not want strangers walking through our backyards. We do not want to pick up the trash and debris left by users of the trail. We believe the money for the trail would be better spent elsewhere.

You're welcome. I was not able to attend the trail meeting, so I have a question. I looked at he video of the Northampton meeting in september and while there was no vote taken, it appaears that it is off Northamptons radar for the foreseeable future. What are the trail groups plan to address this? Where do the southampton supervisors stand? I am not a public service expert but I would think the trail group would want the townships to embrace this idea, which has occurred on other successful railtraols. There was some real problems along the Atglen-Susquehanna trail in Lancseter cty that your group could probably learn from to make the process easier. Just my 2 cents. Again, good luck. Sounds like a tough road ahead

Northampton Township hasn't voted for or against this idea, but decided at the Sept. 19th Board of Supervisors meeting to not discuss it anymore at that time.
http://northampton.patch.com/articles/rail-to-trail-project-on-back-burner-for-township

Build our Trail - Lighten up a bit. It wasn't an "attack" on Ms. Mohan. However, her reporting was incomplete. Mr. Hibbs is still the only named individual who attended, besides her. Who else? Are they all afraid to speak or even be identified with your cause? You say 12 attended, but a good journalist wouldn't leave it to you to fill in those blanks.

All of the announcements I saw made no mention of the location, and directed people to contact you for that information. Yet you gave it out selectively. Show us a page on your website that informs the public of the meeting, if it was indeed public.

Meanwhile, Northampton didn't need to vote on the trail. We're in a recession, and nobody is interested in spending tax money on an extension to your backyard.

Now, did Matthew vote in Northampton or Southampton? Or maybe both? Remember, that's public record. You can own as many properties as you want, but lying to a township committee about where you reside and vote in the hopes of swaying them? That's pretty dishonest. By the way, what's your name again? Aren't you a member of the Upper Southampton township EAC? Running a non-profit secretly while serving as a limited public official?

To all who favor the trail in Northampton - read this:

*l0/1/2012 - 64-year old James Knapp was hospitalized after an ambush by 3 individuals while jogging on the Monon Trail in Indianapolis.
*9/20/2012 - Ginnie Mueller of Durham, NC was sexually attacked on the American Tobacco Trail while jogging.
*9/19/2012 - 30-year old woman was attacked on trail while walking her dogs on the Vernon, Connecticul Rails to Trails.
*7/4/2012 - 23-year old woman was raped on Virginia's Four-Mile Run Trail.
*6/12/2012 - 80-year old woman critically injured by a cyclist while walking on a public trail in Arlington, VA.
5/1/2001 - Chandra Levy was murdered while jogging on a Washington, DC public trail.
2001 to 2012 - Seven pedestrians were killed by speeding cyclists on public trails according to Washington, D.C. police records.
There were also two attacks on Montgomery County trails - a woman walking her dog and an elderly man on a bike.

@ John Scott - "However, her reporting was incomplete. Mr. Hibbs is still the only named individual who attended, besides her. Who else? Are they all afraid to speak or even be identified with your cause? You say 12 attended, but a good journalist wouldn't leave it to you to fill in those blanks."

The Patch reporter was invited by our organization to specifically report on our intent to form a non-profit, not to help uncover the fantasy shadow organization that you like constantly portray the BOT as being. I was an attendee, there were several new people, as well as several regulars. Would their names help you and your cohorts help build other fallacies and form libelous statements?

The whole "pro-rail" vs "no-rail" battle that your side has painted has grown tiresome and transparent. There is no such thing as "no-rail". I think most everyone would agree that we'd love to see rail service restored to that line, but the reality is that it never will be, despite the best efforts of PA TEC. The choice now becomes between keeping an overgrown, useless and abandoned rail line or turning it into a multi-use trail that will benefit the community. Why would you be against something benefiting the community, especially if township tax dollars ARE NOT being requested? It sounds to me like you are the one with the personal agenda.

PA-TEC is not opposed to a trail, per se. However, we don't believe there is such thing as a temporary trail, since no rail trail has ever been converted back to a railway, anywhere in the US. We also believe that railroads were placed along the fringes of a community specifically to isolate them, which makes them ill-suited for recreation anyway.

Lauren - what the township supervisor knows and what the public knows are two different things. You've been asked if you had any involvement with the trail at an EAC meeting, in front of the public, and you were silent. The public deserves transparency, since your intended goal is to put the public on the hook for the expense of your trail.

Donations? Grants? It really doesn't matter. It's not YOUR money. Some of it is taxpayer money, and taxpayers clearly DON'T believe the benefits are worth it.

Actually, Lauren, she did not ask the group, she asked if any MEMBERS were involved. You are a member. You said nothing. You were the only person named on the BOT site when it launched.

We don't need to volunteer any further time to the EAC. It has already said, as recently as a few months ago, that it supports the restoration of commuter rail service. As a member, you are now playing for two teams opposite each other. But at least all of our commentary has forced you to admit this instead of hiding behind your website or your husband (who is busy attacking teenagers with blogs and harassing phone calls and fake police reports and falsified testimony to township supervisors.)

Members of PA-TEC and the other groups you mention are busy promoting transparency in transportation planning and preservation of historical assets. In addition, some of the individuals have become advocates for residents who do not share your categorization of a "forest" as an "overgrown eyesore."

These individuals wish to ensure that your selfish dream of extending your backyard with a fair-weather littering trail is never realized.

You should have more respect for your own neighbors.

Please check out the article written about our effort in today's Bucks County Courier Times.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/my_town/hamptons/rails-to-trails-increased-crime-not-an-issue/article_1b84c553-8950-5ec1-96ac-8e8acb2e12ca.html

Your husband called him once, huh? Did he speak to him, or just breath heavily, you know, just to see if anyone answered?

Creating a website to stop the trail is not harassment. Emailing your group to in an attempt to attend your "public" meetings at their secret locations is not harassment. Videotaping your husband lying to the Northampton supervisors about his residency is not harassment. Asking you if you'd like to discuss a much more widely accepted compromise - rails-WITH-trails - is not harassment (ESPECIALLY after you joined the Newtown Branch Preservation Foundation and even attended some of their meetings under false pretense.)

Calling a kid over and over again - from your jobs, your house, the library, etc. and breathing heavy IS harassment. Even if you felt you were being harassed, which would be a stretch, you sure couldn't find the high road in a flood.

I have my facts straight, Nia McHarg/Lauren, and while I'm sure you've gotten some passionate emails about rail preservation (oh my), your tactics are some of the most underhanded and dishonest any of us have ever seen. Nobody wants to call you because at this point, we know you well enough. You'll post the number, get the call, then cry to patch that someone else posted your number and file a falsified police report.

Email US. We always respond from NAMED accounts.

@ John Scott - I became aware of your group a few years back when you single handedly destroyed the DVRPC Regional Citizens Committee. Your group members were parasitic then and appear to be up to the same old tricks.

To the Build Our Trail group- I don't live in either township but I am quite familiar with the antics of PA-TEC (as is DVRPC and SEPTA) and I urge you to stick with it and continue to move forward. Best of luck to your group and I hope you are successful. You are doing a great deed for your community.

Don't look now, but I see Lauren Jordan's private dog-path funders walking out the door.

PA-TEC has always been on the side of public opinion, helped to organize public opinion for or against a project. That is how we've obtained Newtown Line resolutions in every township. That is also why there is no Bus Rapid Transit in Lauren's backyard. It is why, in part, that there is no parking garage in Jenkintown and no tolls on 422. It is also why there won't be a trail on the Newtown rail line - not because of what we want, but because we advocate for what the public wants over what the agencies and special interests want. 

The RCC got shut down because it too was advocating for things the public wanted that were at odds with what DVRPC wanted. I'm flattered that you think we did it singlehandedly, but the truth is we merely built a coalition at the RCC. 

Perhaps, Jared, you believe that the public should have no input in how its money is spent. If so, then you won't like our tactics. Otherwise, I invite you to actually describe one of the tactics you "observed."

Meanwhile, you encourage BOT with their invitation-only public meetings, harassing phone calls, and false testimony to townships. Those are some tactics indeed. 

In the spirit of "National Kindness Day" (see link) http://www.national-awareness-days.com/national-kindness-day.html.
It is important to remember why "Rails to Trails" are so popular in local communities. From the friendly and courteous trail users to the volunteers who happily give their time maintaining and even patroling the trails. It is easy to see why so many headlines of "rails to trails" projects read "Once they see the trail, they will fall in love with it!". Rails to Trails across America foster a sense of commuinty pride and provide a safe venue to connect people of all ages and abilities with their natural surroundings. My hat is off to those who have been so passionate and brave in carrying the message of "Rails to Trails". The message of "Rails to Trails" is very strong. Have you experienced the greatest gift in the world?

Tom I hope you'll also disclose that you own a fence installation company that would handsomley profit from a contract to build security fences along the trail. I'm not sure who your imaginary army of volunteers who are going to pick up the trash and patrol for vandals in the dark at night on your trail, because there aren't any who do this for the many trails that already exist in Tamanend Park. How would people even get to the trail?

The greatest gift in the world? A trash-strewn trail? So popular?

Tom, this is great fiction. In the real world in Upper Southampton and Northampton, the trail WASN'T popular. The idea did not "foster a sense of community pride," it fostered resentment.

The overwhelming majority favors anything BUT a trail. They favor either the forest that exists now, or a useful commuter rail line. Both are environmentally superior to a littering trail - trees help control runoff and actually have a serious impact on the township's storm water budget. That is why so many towns and cities give away trees for sidewalks. Trains move the economy - they get people to jobs without clogging the roads and polluting the air.

A trail, on the other hand, will get used two days a week and sit idle the rest of the time. It will necessarily involve destruction of trees and habitat, with no appreciable economic impact.

But great story, Tom, about those brave individuals willing to deceive the public and waste the taxpayers money.

Ashley - in order for people to get to the trail, and off the trail in emergencies, the townships will need to condemn land leading from nearby streets. They would need to create easements to allow access at regular intervals.

This would likely mean taking land from some residential owners, although obviously parts of the line are accessible directly.

Ashley - I live in Northampton, a stones throw away from the abandoned rail line. I received a newsletter last week from the township which was asking for volunteers to help clean up Northampton Township park. Most municipal or city parks rely on volunteers to clean and maintain them. The local rail trails in the area have weekend events (usually led by scouts, church groups, or community groups) that walk the trail and clean it / maintain it. These groups also do a great job scaring off the herds of vandals and terrorist cells that frequent the trail. As for access to the trail, (just like the others), any walker or biker would be able to get on the trail using designated entry/exit points. Usually at a former RR station, intersection, or designated lot. It's certainly not an imaginary arm - the Saucon Trail actually has a waitlist for groups to volunteer their time. It's been noted that no rail to trail has ever been converted back to an active rail line. When this trail is built (yes, I said when) there would be a reversionary clause that would give the line back to Septa within a mutually agreed upon time-frame and process should the line ever be reactivated. I love trains, I'm a supporter of transit expansion, but I'm also a realist. A trail would preserve the railroad history as opposed to letting it "grow" away.

The Saucon Trail has a wait list for volunteers? Can you back this statement up?

As I read the minutes from the last meeting, the trail commission is quite busy dealing with ATVs riding on the trail and leaving ruts, problems getting the grass mowed, regular washouts requiring repairs, etc. At the moment, it appears the trail is closed because of storm damage and us asking for volunteers with hand saws to help clear it. I don't see a wait list anywhere, but perhaps I missed something.

At least there's no issue with ATVs in the Philadelphia area that would ruin the BOT trail, right? Wrong. They're everywhere, and they're difficult to police. They'll be on the trail the day it opens. In fact, they can even use the Pennypack and Abington trails to get there when the "Circuit" is completed.

That's funny Mike, because from the looks of Saucon Trail's facebook page, they're having all sorts of problems. Crime is a big issue that the townships now need to spend extra money on. This is not a problem that Upper Southampton needs.
http://articles.mcall.com/2012-09-17/news/mc-hellertown-rail-trail-atv-20120917_1_saucon-rail-trail-dirt-trail-ends

Ever take the West Trenton line and watch the ATV's race the trains down the tracks? I do, they are usually faster then the trains! Put trains in and there will be ATV's, no getting around that.

I'm curious, why the resistance to the trail if there would be a reversionary clause included in the agreement with SEPTA? It's a dormant line. While I understand the desire for restoring service, and whether the demographic data is there to support restoration is to be debated, I don't see how letting the line lay unused, whether by runners, bikers, walkers, or trains benefits ANYONE?

From the article you just quoted: "The borough does not receive a lot of complaints about ATVs or dirt bikes." And the reason they are having "all sorts of problems" is from Hurricane Sandy, which I know your standpoint on that is that if the trail wasn't there hurricane sandy probably wouldn't have occurred, I get it. I understand your logic now.

I enjoy the fact the @johnscott keeps spouting things that are blatantly untrue. I guess you are trying to adhere to the old adage "If you say something enough times it becomes truth regardless of the facts."

I own homes and pay taxes in both townships. As far as I'm concerned where I vote is irrelevant. I pay taxes I get a say. Before you get on rant about "well other people don't want their tax money spent on this" it would be grant funded, but I'm sure this statement will get ignored again.

I was going to ask this question to @ashleyVanSant but since she doesn't actually exist the question is irrelevant.

But since you haven't answered the question @johnscott which township do you live/pay taxes in? Northampton or upper southampton?

Matthew Cappabianco, both you and your wife Lauren, along with the other BOT cohorts continue to engage in misleading and dishonest tactics, pushing an agenda that no one wants. Northampton wants no part of this, nor does Southampton. Where you vote may be irrelevant, but where you live when asked on camera is. You don't live in two houses, now do you? Let's be honest here and stop pretending you do when you're using another family member's address as an excuse to say you do.

No one from BOT has been or will be able to answer the question of how people will get to the trail, because there is no access. Grant funded or not (grants may still be taxpayer money--don't be fooled), the townships have to pay the upkeep and security, and unless there are going to be lights back there at night, it will be a free for all for burglars.

The bottom line is folks, this is an unpopular idea, the townships don't have the money to pay for it, and the parties pushing it have an agenda that appears to be more anti-train than pro trail. If you want to walk a trail, there are plenty in Tamanend Park, and if there are so many people that want trails, why are the existing ones not being used?

Oh look, Matthew's back from his summer home in Northampton.

I'll answer your question directly: I live in neither township. I've never said otherwise.

Back to you - you own a house in both Northampton and Southampton. You want a trail, let me guess, to connect them? And you pick a township to vote in based on which way the wind blows.

Meanwhile, you continue to seek taxpayer money for your trail. Yes, I'm ignoring your comment about grants, because it's wrong - grants won't pay for maintenance or policing, nor are they necessarily NOT taxpayer money - many of them are entirely taxpayer funded. Do us a favor and don't go into finance, ok?

I wonder if anyone else sees the irony in a guy with two houses lying at a township meeting while asking for taxpayer money. Maybe you should pay for it yourself.

Mike - as we've repeatedly discussed, the trail isn't free. Resisting the urge to waste money on projects that only a few people can enjoy will save money.

I'm not going to respond to Ashley as she is not a real person and doesn't exist.

@Johnscott it is really great that you are the voice for townships that you don't live in, they really need your support. And thanks for all the snarky comments.

I'm not going to respond to Ashley as she is not a real person and doesn't exist.

@Johnscott it is really great that you are the voice for townships that you don't live in, they really need your support. And thanks for all the snarky comments.

As an environmental planner I am a huge supporter of a solid transportation infrastructure. I know that of all of the alternatives, mass transit will help to alleviate the impacts of continued sprawling development plaguing our communities. I am well versed on transportation planning ( I have worked and published in this field). However, I see no value in continuing to petition an agency that has no interest in returning service to this line. Would I like service to be restored? Absolutely. It would make the commute of many people in my life much easier. But, the reality is that this is not happening any time soon. This is why I support a rails to trails project. I would like to see something useful created in our community rather than continue to beat a dead horse with SEPTA. I also am a huge proponent for cultural preservation. I think capturing the historical and cultural heritage of the line can be done with a rails to trails project and actually work collaboratively to help preservation efforts. You can continue to personally attack me but you know nothing about me or my motivations in supporting rails to trails.

@Ashley VanSant - I was wondering when John Scott's yappy lapdog and resident PA TEC cheerleader would enter the discussion. You arrived on schedule spouting the same misinformation and rhetoric that has marked your involvement from the beginning.

“Ashley”, since it appears you are very keen on transparency, it’s extremely ironic that you are the only one who uses an assumed name to post your opinions. Why don’t you come clean and use your real name and the organization you represent? What town do you pay taxes to? Please don’t insult us and claim to be a concerned citizen, as your attacks on the trail group’s legitimacy since the beginning have marked you as otherwise. Are you same Ashley VanSant that sent a question to the DVRC in 2011? The one that lists Bryn Athyn as their home? If so, why are you involved in the needs of a community that does not involve you? Why is no record of anyone with that last name in Bryn Athyn? You wouldn't be disingenuous, would you? Nah...

@Ashley Vansant - also, please stop pretending this a battle between "pro-trail" and "anti-train" groups, so that it demonizes anyone who'd like to see a trail placed on this abandoned line. There is no train for anyone to be "anti-train" against; you've even stated that in one of your previous comments on The Patch.

I spent a few hours outside a store in Richboro last weekend talking to residents about the trail and the vast majority supported it and close to 100 signed petitions on our behalf. I’m not going to pretend that this small sample is indicative of the community’s feelings as a whole, but we are not seeing the massive rejection that you and your ilk try to paint

I also learned that there were quite a few along the line who wouldn’t like to see train service restored. How would you respond to their concerns? Actually I know already, as you answered that previously in The Patch. Your response basically equates to “tough, deal with it”. I guess the desires of the community only matter when they fit your agenda.
“Ashley VanSant 2:50 pm on Sunday, July 8, 2012
frankly, if the thought of the train returning bothers you so much, you should never have bought a house adjacent to a railroad, active or otherwise. But this is all nonsense because trains are not returning. ”

I'm a resident of Upper Southampton, and am very excited about the prospect of this trail! I've lived within walking distance of the Perkiomen Trail in Montgomery County and I work within walking distance of the Schuykil Valley Trail in Conshohocken. These are gems of the community and on any day of the week throughout the year people walk, jog, bike and generally enjoy themselves. This piece of essentially abandoned Bucks County would be an amazing resource. For those whose property backs up to the trail, your yards are certainly safer with honest people walking through them than with old abandoned rail lines that no one but delinquents uses now. In Montgomery County, its a point of pride to have a home on the trail, and they are selling homes with that feature, the same as they are with luxury townhomes in Conshohocken. For every young family reading this, imagine having a place to take your family on a walk or bike ride where you could safely go without necessarily piling everyone into the car with the bikes on a rack, and make a day of it! Where do I sign up to support this?

Wow, the anti trail folks sure have an odd way of trying to get their point across. I'm wondering where all of the "anti trail" folks are that they speak of. I can't speak to the other townships, but at the Northampton Twp. BOS meeting, there were a few folks who were opposed to the trail, I forget...10-20?? Let's call it an even 50. That equates to .125% (39,726 residents) of the population that are opposed. It's dangerous to paint with a broad stroke. I have a few other questions for the PA-TEC folks. (I tried to research the website, but several pages were blocked due to a malicious threat detected, yikes!) Why the focus on a $300MM restoration of the Fox Chase line? I'm sure you have the demographics to support it, but is there really such a demand for ridership to CC, via Fox Chase? I would think, especially with the boom in business parks in the western suburbs, that there would be an increased demand for ridership going west? $300MM, in my opinion, would be better spent enhancing existing mass transit infrastructure to where the bulk of people commute to. Also, particularly in Bucks county, the daily commute to NJ is horrendous. 1 rail line, or 95. Scudder Falls bridge is a disaster, every morning.

Transit expansion is a necessity in any urban area, everyone agrees with that. Watchdog groups, like PA-TEC, who make sure Septa is spending money the "right way" are important for keeping organizations like Septa honest. However, I think encouraging SMART growth ....within the area would be a priority of such a group. Focusing your energy on a line that has very little public support for restoration, no interest from SEPTA, and not much community benefit certainly doesn't bode well for your Mission Statement, "PA-TEC's mission is to mobilize passionate support for responsible spending of scarce capital funding for mass transit". .....is $300MM really a "responsible" investment for restoring this line?

Dennis - you lack an understanding of how SEPTA operates and creates a capital budget. SEPTA's intentions are not its own - they are those of the 5 member counties. The fact that the Newtown Line does not appear on the budget between 2012-2023 does not offer any indication of SEPTA's plans.

We all agree, though, that the line will not be restored in the near future. This is NOT because it lacks support in Bucks County. The opposite is true. More likely, it lacks support in the other four counties that comprise SEPTA, and probably because each of them have a preferred project. Meanwhile, Bucks is a little light on cash. As a result, the line stays dormant for now.

One can gauge both the county's and SEPTA's true valuation of the kind by their unwillingness to part with it. The Abington trail section is not required to restore the line, and it is not expected to be an efficient section in terms of speed or ridership. More likely, the line would merge with the West Trenton and Run through Jenkintown.

Unless your name is Matthew, it is hard to live in more than one township, and train routes generally cross through multiple districts. If you promote a train, sooner or later you will be promoting it outside of your home territory. That's different from lying. In any case, I grew up at one end of the line, and live at the other. My interest is in preserving Bucks as a bucolic, residential area, and Philadelphia as an economic engine. Both are in jeopardy.

Mike Bidwell - "not much public support" is a lie that even repeated, will not become the truth. We visited and obtained resolutions from townships in Bucks representing over a third of the county's population. Most resolutions were unanimous. Township meetings were well attended, and few appeared in opposition.

Our ridership estimates, which are conservative and are in line with DVRPC's mid-1990's estimates, well before the recent housing boom, suggest that the line generates more new riders per dollar than any other project being discussed, considered, or built, with the Boulevard extension being a possible exception.

Transit projects are always expensive. We'll leave the debate over how to fund transit and by how much to others, since we're merely promoting better prioritization of spending, not more of it. SEPTA's capital budget is currently big enough to rebuild the entire Newtown Line three times EVERY YEAR. We want some of that sent to Bucks, just one time.

In the meantime, we don't see how saddling UST or NT with maintenance and patrol costs will improve these communities, all under the guise of saving a rail line from weeds. If that was really the concern, why not just send a mowing crew out every ten years for far less cost? We watched people clear a section by hand - it is not necessary to build a trail to preserve the track.

I think we've beaten the train cost question to death, but the best estimate was $100-150 million, including electrification, new track, bridges, and stations. I am aware that we had published higher estimates at one point. We revised them once we got better information from SEPTA.

You're deflecting, though. This thread is about how nobody wants to pay for your trail. Do you even have an estimate? Or will the taxpayer be on the hook for an undisclosed amount?

You've made it clear that you're broke, you want a trail really bad, and you want somebody else to pay for it. How about we limit the rest of the discussion to your trail? Any buildout estimates? Costs to maintain or patrol? Anything? Or just "Build Our Trail?"

@JohnScott - we are not deflecting you brought it up. So no word on where this mysterious mailer came from that Build Our Trail did not send or authorize that only you seemed to receive?

Regarding patrolling the area is already patrolled by the officers where the trail/abandoned line already exists. Talk to the Chief in Upper Southampton. If you are interesting in looking at maintenance reports for other rail trails we suggest you check out this report (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.railstotrails.org%2Fresources%2Fdocuments%2Fresource_docs%2Fmaintenance_operations_report.pdf&ei=PyumUMjOKoyB0AGBs4GABQ&usg=AFQjCNGEM0bIwym9V2aNMMI_J-6HpaZrtg&sig2=P0pw_2c6_wjVLZIzLS9RIg)

There are also various groups that help with track removal and use the money from liquidating the tracks to directly fund the trail (many times this alone covers the cost of the trail and grant money is not necessary). One of these organizations is Iron Horse Preservation Society (http://www.ironhorsepreservation.org). We have already approached this group and are excited about the prospect of working together.

We are striving to provide real cost estimates for this project. Although these are hypothetical until a feasibility study is completed, lets use this example. Trail surfaces range anywhere from 60k-500k per mile. Let's use the most expensive surface material and base that on 8.5 miles of trail. That is $4.25 million. Still far less than your grossly under estimated amount of $100-$150 million. Also, you might want to contact SEPTA again so they can inform you of their amenability towards a trail and to get a real estimate of restoration which is now approaching $400 million. We can provide you will a contact there if you need clarification.

Many residents in Upper Southampton received mailers from the National Rails to Trails organization, conveniently timed with the one-sided op-ed in the Bucks County Courier Times a few days ago. Marketing 101. Put out a free ad, get another organization to request money, hope some of it comes your way. "Build Our Trail", as long as someone else pays for it.

Mr. Scott asks valid questions. How much is this trail going to cost? Who pays to build it? How much to maintain and police it? The Saucon trail is already soaking that municipality in costs picking up dog poop and storm damage. Southampton can't afford this, nor should the taxpayers be indefinitely on the hook for added infrastructure. There are trails in Tamanened park. If there are so many trail lovers, why is the park empty?

The park is never empty when I'm there and I'm there a lot. Not sure what times you are going maybe at midnight?

So I'm unclear first it was a mailer that Build Our Trail sent out now it was from a National Rails to Trails organization? So why would @johnscott say that we were the ones who sent it out? Especially if it was sent to residents in Upper Southampton where he doesn't live. Please clarify.

Probably because you don't live in the township you don't know what the actual usage of the park is....

This information is based on a phone conversation this morning (11/16/12) with SEPTA.

The Elwyn to Wawa extension that is currently taking place is costing approximately $110 million for 3.2 miles. Lets just take the Bucks County portion of the line at 8.5 miles. That would be approximately $292 million for that portion of the line. The entire extent? Approximately $522 million.

While the slope and grade work required for the Elwyn/Wawa project is not as large of an issue for the FoxChase Extension each project has its own unique costs. Much of the FoxChase line is in such bad condition and specifically regarding the major improvements that would need to occur around the Bethayres station to adhere to current FRA standards, SEPTA concurs that the estimate is much closer to the $300-$400 million range.

@Ashley VanSant - Once again, please come clean and let us know who you really are, what organization you represent and where you reside. Until you do, your words are empty rhetoric.

Regarding the mailer, please either scan and post a copy or I'd be happy to meet you in Upper Southampton to pick up a copy. As has been stated several times, which you apparently didn't read or chose to ignore, BOT or the national rails to trails group has not sent out any mailer.

So you are either blatantly lying or someone in your camp just committed a felony. If we find out it's the latter, it will be pursued to the furthest extent of the law.

Mr. Muller - the Warminster line (formerly R2) is operating at full capacity, as is the West Trenton. The newly expanded Warminster lot holds I believe 800 cars, and it fills daily. The track cannot run any more peak trains. In fact, from SEPTA's studies, we learned that the need for additional parking at Jenkintown was actually overflow from Warminster, NOT the Jenkintown area. The giveaway is that the cars at Elkins and Melrose are mostly local drivers, while at Jenkintown they were not, indicating that Jenkintown was absorbing (successfully) most of the overflow from Bucks. Warminster fills, then Willow Grove, then Jenkintown.

That's consistent with where the development has occurred over the last 30 years, and accordingly we've advocated for improvements on Doylestown, Warminster, and West Trenton, preferring track upgrades upstream to parking upgrades downstream.

Ultimately, though, all math points to a missing line, running from Fox Chase (or Beth Ayres) to Newtown. That is why we are so opposed to a trail - we don't want to see any further obstacles put in place.

We also believe that it is this reality that pushed the trailers into action - successful resolutions in favor of the train in multiple townships, and a needs study by DVRPC last year that confirmed our position. While a train might be years or decades away, now is the time to get it moving. The trail is only a distraction.

BOT - name the SEPTA contact. The Wawa project includes moving a yard and acquiring property. It is not a comparable project. It is also accepted that the track on Newtown is in bad shape, however this is the least expensive part of a railroad.

Chris - when you live in Southampton like Two House Matthew, you'll get the mailers we got. I can assure you, nobody committed a felony, you just don't have good information.

@JohnScott - please provide a copy of the mailer then.

@JohnScott - it is not possible for you to "get the mailers that we got" since you don't live in the township. Odd that I, nor any of my neighbors received anything.....

Please provide a copy of the mailer.

Mr. Muller,

YOUR community passed a resolution asking for restoration of train service. YOUR community also expressed disapproval of a trail loud and clear. If you believe otherwise, get the votes and then get the funding. My guess is that your township does not see another hole in their budget or a tax increase as an "improvement" in YOUR community.

You can question the legitimacy me or of the rails to trails brochure all you want. Go knock on some doors in Burgundy Hills if you don't believe me. I'm not about to meet you anywhere Mr. Chris Weale with your aggressive tone, harassment and bullying of me. I have a right to state my opinion here without being bullied by you and your cohorts. Please stop harassing me.

Mr. Scott,

Sometimes a community needs to understand that there are people out there with no stake in their happienss, that would sacrifice their happiness for their own purpose. I think our community leaders will soon learn that the threat of what you propose is far worse for our community than what the Build Our Trail group is proposing. I look forward to further debate on this and I will certainly be sure that resolution 2011:26 is repealed or negated. The proposal to send trains through one of the most idyllic parts of Bucks County again, won't be easy to get approval for either. For Upper Southampton Residents, I encourage you to contact our supervisor and have this resolution repealed. http://www.southamptonpa.com/township-government/board-of-supervisors/resolutions.aspx

@Ashley Vansant - you're insane. I by no means was being aggressive. If you couldn't produce a copy, I would have been happy to meet you at a business in Southampton for you to provide me one. Please don't add me to your fantasy ramblings. I'd just like you to identify yourself, since you are on a first name basis with us all. Maybe we can all go for pizza next.

I went to 4 businesses in Southampton who all had their mail in front of them, of which, zero had anything related to trails. So now it's specifically Burgundy Hills? My daughter has friends there, I'll check with them. I actually hope one exists, as since it didn't come from us, it was sent fraudulently and would LOVE to see the perpetrator exposed.

Cheers!

http://newtownline.pa-tec.org/background.html
The project has apparently been on PA-TEC's mind for a long time. They've been repeatedly rebuffed, and Mr. Scott has been with it the whole time. I'm new to politics and I'm not getting paid to fight this fight. I am a resident, and I have a stake. If my friends in Lower Moreland can get a lease for a piece of this line to convert it to trail, we sure can. My friends in Northampton and Newtown are already planning on going to their next township meeting.

If you are uncomfortable you can always scan a copy and email it either to myself: capo38258@gmail.com or to the build our trail email address: buildourtrail@gmail.com

I believe this alleviates all issues, so please provide us with a copy of the mailer.

thanks

@ Dennis - Regarding costs. See our comment above but here it is again so you don't have to sift through everything.

We think that having a realistic estimate of trail costs is achievable. We also want to be giving the public truthful estimates based on real data. This is the first step in our grant seeking process. A study would be conducted on the feasibility of converting the right-of-way into a trail (ownership or site control is not required at this point). Once this is completed, a trail master plan will be created (by an outside consultant) where the cost estimates are defined. This again is grant funded and wouldn't cost taxpayers any extra money than they have already paid in state taxes. These taxes occur for everyone in the state. I think we could all agree that we would much rather see these tax dollars going towards a local project rather than something that local residents can't utilize.

Costs to maintain/patrol - Unlike the current use of the tracks, a trail is managed and maintained and has permitted uses. Currently it's open to all of the unsavory elements that you like to discuss. There are options for maintenance. While the cost is relatively low, one of the objects of the non-profit is to create an "Adopt-The-Trail" program where our volunteers would work together with groups like The Boy Scouts to help with what little maintenance is required.
Cost ranges from 60-100k depending on surface.

unless of course it doesn't actually exist.....

@ Dennis - Here is a link for the cost estimates and check out the other report noted above in our previous comment.

http://www.railstotrails.org/ourwork/trailbuilding/toolbox/informationsummaries/trail_surfaces.html

You can contact us too for much more information.

Chris, come on now with the conspiracy theories. Somebody fraudulently sent a mailer out on your behalf, knowing the money would go to your cause? What would the point be? You're really out to lunch on this one, aren't you? And by the way, who are YOU? Do YOU live in the township, or are doing exactly what Mr. Muller is accusing me of?

Mr. Muller and Lauren - the resolutions were not passed under circumstances any different from today's. As we've discussed, SEPTA's position is merely an echo of their member counties, and based on the lack of action, it's the same as it was in 1983. The purpose of the resolutions was always to move the county towards action. We made that clear when we asked for them. Nobody wastes time on resolutions in favor of things that are already in the works.

We've posted a photo of the mailer on our website. The recipient has asked to remain anonymous out of fear of being harassed by BOT's phone team or visited by Tom Hibb's fence truck, so we will withhold their name:

http://newtownline.pa-tec.org/20121115_mailer_for_BOT_trail.jpg

PA-TEC - I remember reading a few years ago about a subway (or elevated rail, I forget) running the length of Roosevelt Blvd. I've also hear rumblings about a river line,( I forget the proposed route). I would have to imagine these 2 projects would have a more aggressive ROI then a $300MM reactivated, re-electrified line that *might* increase ridership. I just can't embrace the "it didn't work in the past but it will work now" mantra.

Congratulations Mr. Scott! You just committed libel.

"That mailer asked for money. Not money to build the trail, but money just to put a non-profit together."

I can't wait to get started on this trail! I just sent information about this effort to every class member of my High school class of 1987 and encouraged them to do the same. We'll be promoting it at our upcoming reunion. Standing up to out of community lobbyists has gotten them excited! Thankfully most of them live right here in Southampton, Northampton and Newtown.

I warned them! LOL

In all seriousness though... I have not seen the mailer content, but in all likelihood it was a general letter explaining the Rail-to-Trail Conservancy, their purpose, an invite to view their website and volunteer, etc, and perhaps a request for donation to support local rail-to-trails efforts if interested, which I believe they operate regionally (Northeast US, Southeast US, etc). (Gasp) This is basic marketing. No one is garnishing anyone's wages or raising taxes over this. The reality is hardly what was described as above...

I did not say that BOT was the return address. I can read. I said a mailer went out on BOT's behalf. The national coalition sent mailers to people in Southampton, the day after endorsing BOT's trail in an op-Ed, asking for money. This is obviously not for a trail in Colorado - mailers were specifically targeted.

Considering that the NRTTC is one source of grants that BOT is attempting to use, I can't see how this ISN'T connected to BOT. They can explain better. I'm sure they won't decline this money, though.

What's interesting here is that we have a group that claims that preserving a train right-of-way is one benefit of a trail, as does the NRTTC. Yet almost the entire thread has been devoted to attacking PA-TEC, which has always supported a rails-with-trails project and was rebuffed by BOT for even trying to help.

I'm beginning to think this is a group of anti-train NIMBYs disguised as a trail group, rather than a legitimate trail group.

"I said a mailer went out on BOT's behalf. The national coalition sent mailers to people in Southampton, the day after endorsing BOT's trail in an op-Ed"

All of which could potentially be true, John, considering the best plan for progress is a consortium of effort by multiple parties; however, you can't then say that this letter is asking for money to start a non-profit.

"That mailer asked for money. Not money to build the trail, but money just to put a non-profit together."

That is not an accurate statement.

"Yet almost the entire thread has been devoted to attacking PA-TEC"

An overexaggeration. The tone of this forumn has only regressed into that due to lack of a real transfer of information until about 5-8 of your posts in. Please stick to the facts - I feel that you have rumblings of a solid alternative position if staying on point.

Mr. Bidwell - scroll up. We've previously stated here and elsewhere that the $5 billion boulevard line might yield a better ROI than most other projects, possibly including Newtown. Newtown has changed though - there has been significant development in Bucks. So we can't really rely on late 70's numbers.

Our estimate for both Boulevard and Newtown is about $50,000 for each new rider. By comparison, garages are also running about $50,000 per spot, but few of these are new riders, at least in the locations the garages were proposed. Depending on the costs, whether you count riders shifting from other lines, passenger heads or passenger miles, either Newtown or Boulevard trains come out with a better return. Both clearly had better returns than Quakertown or Reading extensions, due to the lower densities and long distances that discourage train usage.

You could argue that ridership or costs for any project were off by a factor of two and you wouldn't necessarily be wrong. It's hypothetical, since both costs and ridership goes up and down with the economy. Regardless, the ranks wouldn't change much, and to some degree the political climate will accommodate smaller projects over better performing projects.

hi - I had asked a question at the beginning of this thread, i am all for using the train line as a trail, but don't u need support frOm the townships? Southampto has that resolution support the return of trains even though SEPTA has no plans. And I watched the sept northampton meeting and I am not sure where mr Hibbs got the "they didn't say no" thing from. It was pretty clear the supervisors are not doing this anytime soon and it was not just because of $ concern. So where do we go from
Here? I gues I mean to say what are our options without the ok from north south or bucks cty ? Can we do this without them?

Ok people, if you don't mind here are some questions to debate on. I did my best to be fair for both sides so please answer respectfully. =)

Questions:
What is the overall purpose, focus, and vision with building this trail?
What is the overall purpose, focus, and vision of restoring regional passenger rail and possible short line freight service?

How does the trail benefit and improve the community?
How does bringing back trains benefit and improve the community?

What is the economical impact of a rail trail to your community?
What is the economical impact of regional rail and possible short line freight to your community?

What is the environmental impact of a rail trail in your community?
What is the environmental impact of the railroad to your community?

Who are the users of this trail and how does it impact their lives?
Who are the users of the railroad and how does it impact their lives?

Why do you want the rail trail?
Why do you want rail service?

Dennis - point taken on the exact use of the NRTC donations, but the NRTC specifically does NOT fund trail building. It was my understanding, however, that they did support the formation of local groups financially. If that statement is completely inaccurate, I apologize to both BOT and NRTC, and thank Dennis for calling it out.

If so, though, that raises a REALLY important question about what would happen to locally solicited donations if they aren't being used to build either trails or local organizations. I can't believe, on the heels of BOT seeking non-profit status, that NRTC would take donations from the same geographic pool that will neither build this trail nor assist BOT. Again, it'd help if BOT would clarify how this works and what their involvement was.

Questions for both:
If a rail trail is formed within this highly congested and over populated cooridor, is it ignorant to the future of your communities to take away passenger rail service forever? Once a rail trail forms, no trains will ever come back.

If rail service is never restored along with no trail, is it ignorant to the future of your communities to take away a possible means of recreation, fun, and self pride within the community? Leaving usless railroad infrastructure to decay and vegetate forever

Can either group coexist? If so, how? If not, why?

That's all for now, I apologize for any poor grammar or spelling within my posts. =P

Mike has some good questions for everyone to ponder. Neighbors are split on both sides of the fence. I think BOT got played in becoming a fundraising vehicle for the national rails to trails group. Captain Kirk has been courteous enough to reveal his true motives for supporting the trail however: stopping a train that wasn't coming. Disgraceful.

Ms VanSant,
I certainly have a motive to do my best to help an organization achieve a goal that I see as a great opportunity for this community. I grew up here and I now have my family here. I am an outdoor enthusiast, and I regulary use both Tamanend and Churchville Nature Center. I live within 5 minutes walk of the trail, my church abutts the trail and I've used these trails in both Schwenksville and Conshohocken PA. I'll be at this groups next meeting, and will now be sure to monitor my Townships resolutions for further information. I am a leader of multiple civic organizations in Bucks and Montgomery County as well and I enjoy the friendship of very good people. I'll certainly be looking forward to meeting you at one of those meetings, and you can apologize to me in person for assuming you have my permission to call me by a cherished nickname. Only my best friends get to call me Captain Kirk. Since you have friends in Burgundy Hills, I'm sure you'll see me and my family walking regularly through the community we're a part of.

Mr. Musiowski - I like where you're going with this, but you're omitting two options which importantly each have support and benefits. In fact, these two options are arguably more popular than the two you present:

1. Do nothing. A sizable number of people don't want anything built. While I don't agree with them, I don't think we can leave them out of the debate. Vegetation controls storm water runoff, which has some benefit. It also protects, to an extent, neighboring properties. It also doesn't foreclose on a future train, should one someday be urgently needed.

2. A rail with a trail. It's been done, and it provides all the benefits that a trail alone provides, with the added benefit of moving the economy. Think weekday commuter rail, weekend jogging trail. Trains are in radio contact most of the time and serve as a de facto patrol. Simply building a trail next to the tracks would suffice to maintain notice that the right-of-way is rail-first, trail-second, which is what most rail-trail organizations seem to be advocating for.

I'll let you rephrase your question, if you want, but in the meantime, I have one for BOT. The right-of-way is 60 feet wide. A two track train needs only half of that. 30 feet is a lot of trail. BOT - tell us why your trail can't be built without ripping up the tracks. Please don't say "eyesore."

Also, it's important to note. Even if the funding was there to reactivate the line, this project is so far from SEPTA's radar it wouldn't stand a chance of receiving the limited resources that are going towards other projects that SEPTA has deemed to align closer with their long range plan.

Even members of PA-TEC have noticed the beauty and value that trails can bring. The following excerpt was taken from a post by a PA-TEC member on http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=50679&start=45.

"I took my own tour of the "Pennypack Trail" today. Its definitely nicely done and quite a few people using it. As I was taking my time looking over the artifacts (signal boxes, masts, etc) a few people commented on how interesting some of this stuff is. I overheard another woman with her toddler son remarking how this used to be a railroad, so most people are aware of the trail's history."

PA-TEC makes the case that rail trails can be done in a tasteful manner while capturing the cultural/historical heritage of the rail line. Something our group has promoted since day 1.

Actually, it is continuous. The right-of-way is 60 feet the entire length. In areas where it is graded differently from its surroundings, it's even wider - I believe 150 feet in one or two places. There are some bridges and cuts that are narrower, but the point is you can build your trail without ripping up all if the track.

I have spoken with SEPTA as well. Unless you're putting somebody on thr record, enough with the name dropping. Byron Comati is a competent individual, for sure, but the people calling the shots are the ones writing the checks, and none of them live at 1234 Market.

Those checks, of course, come from the counties, the states, and the fed. We can talk about 40 year plans all we want, but in reality SEPTA's "plans for the line" are their plans "until the next election."

Show me something saying that the line is officially abandoned. It's not.

So let's get this straight. The mailer was from the national coalition, soliciting donations in this area, which will NOT be used to build a trail. Instead, that money is used to provide guidance to groups like yours, on things like forming non-profits and soliciting MORE donations.

Is this true?

Donations to provide guidance on collecting more donations. Bernie Madoff picked the wrong industry, didn't he.

You may be able to build a trail without ripping up the track but that is inevitable unless the line lies dormant.

You asked who our SEPTA contact is and we gave you that name. That isn't "name dropping" when you are explicitly asked who our contact is. You however have provided no source for your information. We really think SEPTA would be interested in hearing your thoughts on their plans. No one ever said the line is officially abandoned.

So the national coalition is indeed soliciting donations in your neighborhood that won't be used to build a trail. That's nice.

SEPTA has heard our thoughts on their plans. It barely matters, though, what SEPTA thinks or what you or I think. What does the county think? Not parks and rec, but the commissioners? What do the townships think? Will the people along the tracks change their minds and support your trail? We heard from plenty of neighbors that were just fine with the status quo, and neither the township nor the county appears willing to throw those neighbors under the bus.

How does a trail improve life for people currently looking out their back window at a forest that you intend to mow down and replace with gravel and a fence?

To respond to the question regarding whether our group can coexist with PA-TEC/Newtown Branch the answer is simple. Absolutely not.

Why would we work and collaborate with a group that has stated "It should be known that line is also in danger of becoming a rail trail, a fate we are trying to prevent at all costs." http://myprogressiverailroading.com/rail_forum/legislation__regulation/f/3297/t/12778.aspx

From the president of PA-TEC regarding the adjacent trail in Lorimer Park
(http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=5519&p=574877&hilit=trail+newtown#p574877)
"...except the bicycle/hiking/nature crowd has already claimed the ROW for their trail. Taking that away from them is like ripping a bottle from a baby. I think the fact that the line is now being carved up has nailed the coffin shut."

The trail wasn't the first target of PA-TEC. Rapid Bus Transit was.
(http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=16332&hilit=trail+newtown&start=15)

"I am applying the logic "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Effort to restore train is going nowhere. Building busway would be detrimental. Best case senario: they would prefer a train over the bus and would petiton for it. Worst case, they don't want anything and the busway will not be built. Regardless, if they don't want anything, they're going to protest it no matter what happens. I'd like to see the train come back, and I'll do whatever I can to ensure the busway does not get built."

More from the PA-TEC president. (http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=16332&hilit=trail+newtown&start=120)
"Maybe we should study helicopter shuttles next since the NIMBY's don't want trains or buses."

You may be wondering, if train service is restored where will everyone park? PA-TEC has an answer. Eminent Domain.
(http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=5519&p=574877&hilit=trail+newtown#p574877)

"If you've driven the line from start to end, you'd agree that there are very few places to dump a parking lot or garage without using eminent domain."

"...the the real estate doesn't exist unless you start leveling people's houses. If they don't want the train, they're not going to want parking garages either." (http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=5519&hilit=trail+newtown&start=420)

This pretty much sums it up. PA-TEC president states, (http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=5519&p=574877&hilit=trail+newtown#p574877)

"I've been following this line since the day it closed and its pretty obvious it would take a act of God to bring trains back to this line. Honestly. Its just not feasible. And none of this is about me or you, its about the region and what it can support. And trains to Newtown just aren't in that scope at the moment. Trust me, I've had hope for 25 years, and its quite obvious now that there are more important transit needs that this region needs. I'm not saying give up, I'm saying the focus needs to be elsewhere because that's where the need is."

"To respond to the question regarding whether our group can coexist with PA-TEC/Newtown Branch the answer is simple. Absolutely not."

Simple solution, so what if trains don't come back. If you left the rails intact and built the trail with the rails and around the row, you can coexist. Build the trail on top of the rails and cover up the rails just enough so that the top steel portion shows but won't be a tripping hazzard for bikers. If you could accomplish and support that, local railroad enthusiast and pro rail supporters would be more than happy and motivated to help repaint and restore old relics from the line to help make it more scenic and historical.

Nobody asked whether your group can co-exist with ours, and frankly, I don't think anybody cares. The question was more about the corridor, not the people, and whether your group is building a trail simply to prevent a train from coming back.

The quotes from 2008 are terrific. Maybe you disagree and believe a 60-ft bus highway should have been built behind all those houses. We thought otherwise, and that opinion prevailed.

I'm not sure the eminent domain comment was related to Newtown. I believe I've advocated for voluntary purchases, which is exactly what SEPTA is doing on the Wawa line. In this real estate market, I'm not sure people fear a cash offer as much as you think, but it's irrelevant as the train isn't being built.

Talk about your trail, not PA-TEC or the train you don't want.

The tracks are not usable. They are in terrible condition. For a rail with trail to be created that would mean that the $300+ million would be needed to rebuild the line. We have said it numerous times. If the money was there and this was actually something feasible (as stated by your own president as being unfeasible) there wouldn't even be a discussion about a trail. But that isn't the reality. If anything this appears to be another attempt by PA-TEC to gain support for expansion of the line under the guise of being open to a rail with trail.

We did talk about our trail. We answered all of Mr. Musiowski's questions.

Mike we'd likely be on board with that idea. Ripping up numerous miles of rail, some of which is brand new (early 1980's, heavy gauge, used for two years) and ties doesn't make sense.

I'll bet the trailers advocate for ripping up the "decrepit" rails, but will advocate for leaving all of the decrepit bridges in place.

An update on our survey. Our survey has a new link (https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/BuildOurTrail). Please spread the word and send to your friends.

Also, check out the new Take Action page on our website. http://www.buildourtrail.org/take-action

PA-TEC - We are honored to have made it onto your homepage. However there are several false statements on your website.

1. We are "unorganized". We will be filing for non-profit status this month and have received over 1,000 signatures supporting our effort.

2. "The board voted against..." There was no formal vote taken regarding the conversion of the line into a trail.

3. "BOT has recently changed the direction of their trailbuilding campaign..." Not true in any capacity. Our objectives have not changed. "Bashing PA-TEC..." You may want to reread the thread.

4. "Engage BOT in a civil discussion online..." Our group members were personally attacked on numerous occasions by your group. We have been nothing but civil. Read your comments. Then read ours...

5. "Trail initiative is being driven by NIMBYs attempting to stop a train that isn't coming" Your words not ours...

6. "...group has not provided any data on costs...who foots the bill...who gets to police and maintain" read our posts above related to each of these issues. The feasibility study (which we stated is our first objective) would analyze cost scenarios. The trail would be grant funded and any remainder can be paid for by rail removal services provided by organizations such as http://www.ironhorsepreservation.org/. Policing is provided by the police that already oversee these areas. Maintenance would be provided by a "Friends of..." group that would be created based upon the non-profit and other volunteer organizations such as the Boy Scouts.

An important discussion is absent from this discourse. Commuter rail produces 25% of the CO2 per passenger mile compared to single occupant vehicles. There is an urgent need for us to reduce vehicle miles traveled (VMT) and greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions. Every rails to trails project instead of rails with trails serves to further delay the urgent need to mitigate climate change through the concept of moving people instead of moving cars. There is no more efficient way of moving people than commuter rail. Converting rail ROWs to recreational trails moves us further from the urgent need to get people out of their cars and onto commuter rail. Politicians, DVRPC and SEPTA will only find the money to do what is needed if the citizens make them understand that the physics is clear and that our grandchildren matter. The politicians and some planners would like nothing better than for the short-term enjoyment of a few recreational trail users to justify inaction on the hard work of providing an energy efficient and environmentally beneficial option to automobile travel. The need is urgent. There is no time to waste.

TheENERGYGuy,
Great point about energy, and pollution and the upcoming motorless trail. Community members, young and old, in shape and some a little out of shape will have a beautiful means to walk or ride their bikes, and push their strollers to some of Bucks County's most scenic destinations without having to get in their cars, and find parking. They could walk from Lower Moreland to Newtown, seeing Tamanend Park, Churchville Nature Center,and if we execute this well even be able to connect to Tyler State Park. They might even be able to learn about the history of the line at the old Train station in Southampton, and an enterprising preservation society might use all that wholesome traffic to tell the story and sell some water and healthy snacks. Merchants along the route could, as they do in other trail projects, extend a staircase to their business for a lunch break, or for bike repairs. I think we're talking about a great opportunity to build something just perfect for my children and grandchildren. I hope to see you walking or riding the trail in the near future.

Mr. Muller - That's quite a picture you paint.

PA-TEC has tried to avoid the climate change/energy price debate, mainly because we think commuter rail is a good idea regardless. That said, none of us believe that gas is going back to $.90 a gallon.

It would therefore seem a bit naive to say that the benefits of being able to push a stroller from Lower Moreland to Newtown outweigh the benefits of getting people to work.

But I'll let you make your case with some facts. Tell us: how many people use a typical trail on a given day? How about on a weekday? What is their average trip length? How do they reach the trail?

Let's see some stats that would convince a township that the rails should come out and the gravel path should go in. We'll even help you - we're pretty good with data modelling. Make your case with hard numbers and carbon impact and gas savings, not some rosy idea of pushing a stroller 8 miles (and back?)

thank you for responding, build our trail. i just did a google search for this trail and railroad newtown line. their are long patch articles, patec websites and resolutions on township sites. in other words, high profile and lot of controversy. as a politician in any of these affected townships [and ig uess those who have signed these pro-traim resolutions) why would they want to support anything that is so controversial ? we all know how volatile the political climate is, if the last election is any indication (blue vs red, no middle ), this trail idea is going to be a very tough sell. dont get me wrong, i think it is good idea but this may be the wrong train line to do this on. no politician who wants to stay in office will get involvedd with any cause that has so much anger and controversy and will cause him or her bad press i think. maybe i wrong. [sorry for my poor english..]. How does your group intend to deal with all of this negative publicity and misinformation so early on as I too thought that you were asking for money for a feasibility study. does that have to be done?

It is impossible to compare the carbon impacts of a trail vs. rail restoration. We can all agree that restoration is not and will not be occurring any time soon. The comparison is then between a rail/trail and doing nothing. Therefore comparing those two options, a trail would help remove vehicles from the road.

"Recent studies have shown that making communities more bike/pedestrian- friendly can make a significant contribu- tion to overall greenhouse gas emissions by driving down VMT. Overall, creating bicycle/pedestrian-friendly communities can result in between a five to 15 percent reduction in overall VMT in a commu- nity (Litman 2007). These figures can be even higher in close proximity to bike/ pedestrian facilities with local reductions of 20 to 30 percent (CCAP 2007)."

We invite you to review the benefits of "active transportation" in both helping to reduce emissions, improve community health, make create more livable communities. (www.railstotrails.org/resources/documents/.../atfa_20081020.pdf)

There is no better time than the present to support the energy efficiency, reduced VMT and GHG emissions, and the economic and environmental benefits that result from commuter rail. It is true that the Newtown Line runs through residential areas and is less rural than other rails with trails projects, but those points support the benefits of commuter rail in this region. Consider the common use of commuter rail in Europe and Japan to move people efficiently and comfortably, and the resulting lack of dependence on the automobile. I was a Boy Scout. I love hiking on trails. However, in the case of an existing commuter rail ROW connecting bedroom communities to the center of a metropolitan region, it is a terrible waste to not use it for that purpose. Eventually the obvious will become apparent to those that control the money and the commuter rail line will be restored. In the meantime we dither and the glaciers melt.

Hello, I'm not a regular Patch reader, but I was told of this blog over the weekend, and since I live near the line I thought my input might be appreciated by some.

I've been in the township long before the train stopped running, and can say the character of Southampton has changed, for the worse, since it stopped running. It had issues, but we were grateful we had it. The 1982 crash had nothing to do with the train service ending.

To my neighbors and those who don't want the train back: Many of you have moved here since the train stopped running. It is your fiduciary duty as a home buyer to be aware of what your future neighbors are.

I ride SEPTA frequently, and schlep up to Warminster with my fingers crossed that I'll find a parking spot.

I've talked to many friends on the trail, which is part of the township's comprehensive plan. Most of us don't want it because it adds many concerns which deal with safety and cost. Take a look at the Street Road underpass.

While Southampton is my lifelong home, its now nothing more than an intersection of dangerous roads. We need to change. We need to get with the times. We can't let this asset continue to rot, and if we are to remain a strong bedroom community, then that train has to come back.

Consider this:
http://articles.philly.com/2005-10-27/news/25442840_1_corridor-strategic-plan-rail-stations

hi built our trail - thank u for answering and giving details about the good that rail trails bring. I know they are good and serve good perpose and i like them much but how this will get past the controversy? i guess what I say is that even with much resident support, facts ( like the links you Provided above) and everything else, look at this patch article and how many people have written on it. Why would mr Komelasky or ms silver or mr rothermle support this knowing how much fire it create ?

@Franz Merkel - thank you for the great input on this subject. If you scroll through many of the previous posts on this article, you may see of your concerns addressed already. There have been some very valid points made by both sides of this debate, but unfortunately those get lost in the "weeds" and overlooked.

One point that I think needs to be clarified, is that the Build Our Trail group is not "anti-train" as is being implied. We have officially stated that we would welcome restoration of service on this line but the reality is that despite the best efforts of groups like PA TEC, service restoration in the near future not alive. We too also think groups like PA TEC are important as public watch dogs, but unfortunately they have become very adversarial with our group over the trail.

With the restoration of train service not a foreseeable reality, our group is attempting to create something of both economic and recreational value to the adjacent communities where the fading train tracks exist. It's not an issue of train vs trail.

Mr. Weale, there have been several posts from a few people that support Build The Trail but make definitive statements that they do not want the train. Really, this is immaterial. I'd like to think that most of the people here are Southampton residents, and as such would be civil to all as representatives of this township. I only just learned about patec, so I can't render judgement, though they do have a very sharp and detailed website. We need people like that.

However, I contacted Byron Comati at SEPTA, and was told that SEPTA has no plans to convert the line to a trail at this time. I think that ends the debate.

@amills4964 - you've raised some great points and your input is very valid. Both myself and other BOT members have had the chance to speak directly to residents of both townships over the past few months regarding the trail conversion and the reaction that we receive is predominately is favorable.

Whenever change is going to be discussed in a community, regardless of whether that change is significant or benign, there is always going to be a group of passionate dissenters, which is actually very healthy to the process.

While there are many legitimate concerns by residents that we've done our best to address, you have to be careful using posts here on The Patch as a barometer on public opinion, as much of the "fire" you reference being present, is generated by special interest groups whose sole purpose is to muddy the water and "torpedo" the trail initiative.

Thanks again for your input.

Torpedo is an understatement. The trail group censors every bit of information from their Facebook page, hide the results of their "polls" and make unsubstantiated claims of supporters with meetings held in secret.

The bottom line appears to be no one supports this, residents will be up in arms when they hear they're going to lose land to build accessways to the trail, especially along Churchville Road, and now SEPTA says they haven't endorsed anything.

Funny how you guys tried to deflect criticism by talking about an invisible claim and picking apart the PA-TEC watchdogs instead of providing fact. The fact is Northampton isn't supporting you, SEPTA isn't supporting you, and neither is Upper Southampton. Just ask Joe Golden.

Build our trail is about as believable as PA-TEC saying the train is coming back.

BOT - you appear to lack an understanding of planning fundamentals and what "pedestrian friendly" means in this context.

Surely you would not consider either a large shopping mall or the Sahara Desert parts of a ped-friendly community, and yet both provide for plenty of recreational walking just like your trail. 

Truly ped-friendly communities don't simply add places to walk, though. They support walking as an *viable alternative* to driving. 

Your trail is NOT an alternative to driving because it does not connect any significant number of people to jobs, other transportation, or commerce, because none are within reasonable walking distance. Your trail does no more to make your community ped-friendly than a racetrack helps with traffic congestion. A few sidewalks would go much further.

As your co-member with an actual name points out, there's no train coming. So the analysis becomes trail vs no trail, or "forest" vs "pavement", with the additional impact of people driving to walk on your trail instead of staying home and enjoying a walk in their backyards (soon to be made undesirable by the addition of your trail.)

You have the environmental/planning background. There's no reason why you can't tell us what the net carbon impact of this project is. If not, maybe you're the one who should be returning your diploma.

Well, Ashley, we're not saying the train is coming back. We're not torpedoing the trail either - we think BOT is doing a great job of that on their own.

WOW, what trails we tell. BOT was not asking for money at the 9/25 NHT supervisors meeting? Watch the replay at northamptontownship.com (click on tv) and watch the guy with the phillies hat ask who was going to pay for the 60k study. Answer from the sponsoring supervisor, “the township.” are we to believe that this supervisor was possibly confused and misinformed? Or are you saying that BOT just did a bad job prepping him?

Southampton did approve the concept of a trail in 1992. What they successfully did is what BOT failed to do and that is to get the item on the agenda at the last minute, call it a discussion (not a vote) and stack the house with out of town bicycle zealots posing as residents. Most importantly, cross your fingers and hope no opposition shows up. Nice try! By the way, the SHT meeting following the conceptual approval drew a rowdy crowd all crying foul.

BOT accusing PA-TEC of proposing the use of eminent domain is the pot calling the kettle black. Fact, the perkiomin trail would never have been completed without the use of eminent domain. I would suspect that most RTT projects use this disgraceful action against private citizens for of all things “recreation.”

BOT, Please stop misleading the public with your promotional trail pics that have no homes in them. You must know that this proposed project will cut through hundreds of homes , some as close as 50’. Lets be honest here, the view from the proposed trail will be of backyards or BOT installed fences

So lets set the record straight. BOT wants the taxpayers to spend about 4 -5 million dollars for a trail that will sooner or later give way to a train in an area that has access to over 4000acres of open space and approximately 75 miles of trails.

Its easy to waste OPM (other peoples money )isn’t it.

The truth - BOT didn't admit to actually being at the NHT meeting until after the fact, so I don't think they prepped them at all. You'll note that nobody in the video identifies as BOT.

It does raise some questions about how this got on the agenda without a local sponsor.

Put one of these in ------> http://gizmodo.com/magenetic-levitation/

With this tech ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductrack

is build r trail nonprofit yet? wood like to make donation. thenk u

While the rest of the nation is still suffering in the great recession, houses and businesses are still being BUILT around Newtown and Northampton Township. Public transit ridership continues to grow in this area, and eventually those in authority will wake up to the fact that the Newtown Rail Line is a valuable commodity worth restoring. The trail idea will only work if the rail line is already up and running.